Reality of Secularism – Syed Abu Ala Maududi
Submitted by admin on June 25, 2009 – 4:54 am64 Comments
Read this long time ago. Since we once again talking abt role of Islam and democratic system to follow, with a message being propagated by everyone from USA to Imran Khan that religion is a private matter, I thought would be good idea to share this with you guys. Do share ur thoughts on this article.
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Just a question. Did Maududi oppose the creation of Pakistan? There is confusion about this question. Some people say “yes” and some people say “no”. Does anyone know?
@Observer,
yes. He did. I will try to find the khutba he gave to Aligarh Muslim college where he laid out his reasons. sadly they all have come true.
As maulana madni said, jab tak masjid bun na jaey ikhtilaf ki gunjaish hai, jab masjid bun gai to phir jhagra he kia? (or words to same effect) thats the line taken by all who opposed the creation. There argument against it was not out malice or doubt over Jinnah but on Jinnah’s companions and that creation of Pakistan dun neccessarily means a true Islamic state. Maulana once said, pakistan to osi dun ban gaya jis din pehley hinduzadey nay islam qabool kar liya tha, alag mulk se kia hasil hoga?
@afzaalkhan,
Its hard to understand your logic
Prophet(saw) was not infallible but Muadudi(rehmatulla) was infallible.
Why its hard for you to say he did a mistake by opposing creation of Pakistan…later he rectify his stance.
You are trying to justify his faulty stand by saying
“sadly they all have come true.”
I recently saw one of the interview of Maulana Modidi telecasted on PTV. In that interview he explained his logic. He said that He never opposed or supported the idea of Pakistan. He said that he had two issued related to this idea. 1) If Pakistan would be created what would happen to the Muslims in India who would lead them. 2) secondly if Pakistan would not be created (All unsured till March 1947) what would happen again to the whole nation of Muslim. He said there must be some good number of personalities to lead Muslim nation under both outcomes on either side of border.
He also commented on his decision to come Pakistan and said that when Pakistan was established there was no proper strategy and though Pakistan was created in name of Islam there is no clear picture how to lead Pakistan to its destination. And this reason compel him to come Pakistan and led the movement to Islamic constitution with successful attempt of Objective Resolution written under the guidance of Maula. Government showed the final draft of Objective Resolution when Maula Sahib was politically imprisoned.
I think this is fairly clear that there must be some one at neutral side to lead the nation irrespective of what would the outcome. And this is where Maulana Sahib has done quite well and now this is due to this neutrality the message of Maulana is spreading from bay of Bengal to Meditarrian sea
@Afzaal,
Thanks….I do not agree with Maudidis views about the creation of Pakistan. Did he ensure a lot of lost votes=land to india?
Oh plz Afzaal what is this crap? Admin please remove this fatwa or whatever you call it…..Maududi has always been controversial and his logic is quite illogical…
@All Ever human being is fallible except when guided by Allah. So if Maulana Modudi opposed creation of Pakistan that is not the end of the world. It does not diminish the fact that he was a great thinker.
@Nukes I have difficulty reading it all (will take too long) but difference of opinion should be welcome. After all that was the guiding principle behind creating the site!
@Jazoo good point! BTW how are the rest of your friends they still thrashing each other “elsewhere”.
I am trying to get feedback from friends on the website so that we could adjust to popular demand.
@jazoo
I never claimed Maududi sahib was infallible. His whole life he fought against theocracy and was the biggest critic of theocracy and infallibility. I suggest u read his work b4 u accuse him of being infallible.
@ Pak.Nukes
What his being controversial has to do with his views on secularism?
@ Observer
Was Pakistan created, the answer is yes so in the end votes were sufficient. How abt we discuss what the article is about? Reality of secularism and why Islamic system is better.
@afzaal,
Controversial person’s views are always taken as ‘biased’.
@afzaalkhan,
“Was Pakistan created, the answer is yes so in the end votes were sufficient.”
That’s not a logical conclusion based on what I said. I said we lost votes because of him and that means we lost land to the Indians because his followers voted AGAINST the creation of Pakistan. That was his choice/stance – wrong or right. What is even more mind boggling to me is that he choose to settle in the land he was AGAINST.
Apart from that there is no doubt that he had a lot of knowledge, but in this case he used it VERY poorly.
“How abt we discuss what the article is about? Reality of secularism and why Islamic system is better.”
Yes, let’s do that.
IMO we cannot separate religion and state though I DON’T want a theocratic state. We are Muslims and the law of the land must reflect this fact!
I suggest publishing Bhutto/Mushy/Benazir/Shaukut Aziz even Zardari’s statements here on different issues…kiya khayal hai admin?
@pak.nukes, Provocation! LOL! I am sure Zardari and Mushy will do the trick.
Murder through cyberspace!!!
@Observer,
lets debate, The idea is not a theocratic state, but an Islamic state. The problem with Islamic Ummah is that we have left the deen to mullah, as a result we have become wat hadith said, Tum bhi onki parivee karoo gay, yahan tak ke voh kisi gooh main ghusain gain to tum bhi ghusoo gay. sahaba asked, u mean ppl of the book, and Prophet (PBUH) replied yes.
The criteria for Islamic head is one who is most knowledgeable in every thing. Deen and dunya both. Today none of our leaders can lead the salat and yet we are to be ruled by them.
Secularism as practice fully in 2 countries i,e France and Turkey has shown how its use to oppress anyone who dun conform to the views of secularist. Ppl blast the religion yet they have made secularism the new religion.
@afzaalkhan
I never accuse him of infallible….I simply accused him for his faulty stand on creation of Pakistan.
I think you are wrong to say he was against theocracy.
He strongly believe like Imam Khomeini and Hasan Bana and many like minded scholars that the word “Deen” used in Quran means complete way of life including Governance on Islamic theocracy.
I don’t know what do you mean by biggest critique of infallibility.
Infallibility is purified state of mankind mentioned in Quran when its talk about removal of Al-Rijs 33:33.
Al_rijs means all kind of impurities….so one can deny it but that does not change what Quran has to say on this matter.
@taukeer
I rarely visit pak politics anymore so hard to say what my or your friends are doing there.
BTW its a good site soon it will pick up the pace…need a major development in home country like one we had in Iran recently.
IMO A coup against Zardari would be good start to pump this site or CJ suomoto on NRO.
@jazoo, Will love suomoto. That will really do the trick!
Nice to read Maududi sb after a long time. Again found his effectice power of argumentation.
It will be useful if participants discuss the core issue of article; secular state vs Islamic state. But I am getting the same old mantraaaa in this thread that weather Maududi oppose or support creation of Pakistan.
@zahid I think we put the mantra to bed. He was a great Muslim thinker and yes we should concentrate on his work.
@Zahid & Taukeer
I don’t think you guys should be angry just because someone is questioning an authority. I agree that my question was off topic. I just found an opportunity to have an answer to my question. I think everybody tend to get off topic in between.
What triggered such response from you people? Was it because we have an authority in this case, and we (Pakistanis) have a record of questioning authorities – be it religious or political? IMO we should learn to question. There is NO harm as long as the critical comments are sober, logical and factual. End of story from my side.
@Observer,
can u come on msn plz
@Observer I am not at all angry and apologise if you perceived that from my comment.
lets get back to topics mates,
basic premise of article is religion is not pvt matter i,e its just a personal relationship of man and God, and thats where it should stay. God and his laws have nothing to do how we live our lives as society. While the Islamic way is that everything every aspect of our lives is covered by God and we have to follow that. So taking this premise even governments have to be as per law of God. Not what the population desires. Do u guys agree?
In an Islamic Republic one has to accept that the State has a duty to legislate within the confines of Islamic Law. That btw includes the permission for non believers to live according to their believes. That is a key point that most people deliberately ignore or hide because that does not fit with the demonisation of Islam and Muslims agenda.
@taukeer
That I agree but lets stick to the main premise should the state be implementing the Islamic law or should we be leaving that to individual choice.
For example, if we accept that Islamic laws should be the governing principle, should then state be enforcing the salat? Do state has any say in it if i Pray or not? Under the premises of Religion being the matter btween God and man, state has no say, right?
@afzaal what happened in the Prophet’s time. Was there an enforcement of salat by the state? Please excuse my ignorance but I genuinely would want to know.
@taukeer,
Depends;) which era u talking abt. If we talking abt the last 2 yrs then there was hardly anyone who dun pray. The problem with establishing salat by state is we interpretate it wrongly. If my understanding is correct, enforcement will come when someone refuses to pray not if someone misses prayers. e.g Haroon Rasheed quoted the hadith that Prophet PBUH said, mera bus chaley to main on gharoon main aag laga doon jinke log namaz parhney nahi aatey aur soey rehtey hain. 1st the hadith is early days of medina when society was being formed, 2nd if i recall correctly it was after fajar prayer and thus could be ppl who missed salat cuz of oversleeping. So u cant enforce if someone missed salat, compare to someone who says no I wont pray at all. Fiqh are clear i.e all imams agree refusal of salat means the person is not muslim anymore and thus murtid. So the point is missing salat due to watever reason and outright refusal to do so. The excuse has to be legitimate eg in KSA salat time shops has to be close and everyone should attend.
To look it this way, Salat is fard, and if we going to believe that state has a right to enforce religious way of life then surely the 1st and most open sign of a muslim is praying salat. If one dun pray salat at all how can he/she consider self muslim?
The issue simply is and has always been whether Pakistan should be an Islamic State governed by Islamic Sharia.
The problem arises when you come to Islamic Sharia- whose Sharia and whose interpretation.
If we should use literal interpretation of the Arabic text or with foot notes by the experts- and then who are the experts anyway ? Their mother tongue is not Arabic .
If all our elders had stood up or done scholarly work in out own languages- we would be much better off to-day with much greater understanding of the Quran and Sharia and the mullahs would have become extinct long ago.
I am not very fond of Maudoodi Sahib and his writings as I would describe him as a literalist.
One of the great problems that we face to-day is due to the colonizing influence of the Muslim Arabs since the days of Mohammad Bin Qasim – is the imposition of Arabic as the language of our faith.
Imagine for a minute if the English, the French and the Germans still had to read and pray on Aramaic( language of Christ PBUH) and (to add the issue of Shria) to have all their laws to be translated from Aramaic by experts-( Mullahs)-
Long ago our ancestors placed their future generations in a Language Prison of Arabic and they used the force of Religion by keeping it in the same foreign language- Arabic .
If you wish to know one reason for our people’s lack of interest in having a theocratic Islamic State- you have it there in an Imposed language imprisonment in Arabic.
Languages are living things in the sense that they are not static.
But it has to be your own language- I or you cannot live in Arabic as a living language because it is not our own.
@Shimatoree
“Long ago our ancestors placed their future generations in a Language Prison of Arabic and they used the force of Religion by keeping it in the same foreign language- Arabic.”
I don’t see the problem in this. It is very difficult to translate one language to another without missing nuances. To keep the message in tact it is necessary to keep the message in it’s original form. The Christians are not that privileged to have a message in it’s original form. We are the lucky ones and we should keep it that – not because of the Arabs but because of the message!
@Observer, You do not see the problem of the dictatorship of Arabic !
Let me try again.
Are we lucky NOT to understand the message of Quran ?
There is no question that 99 % of the people of the Muslim world except the Arabs- DO NOT understand Arabic and thus my contention is they do not get the message of the Quran.
That is why we have people like Maudoodi who translate a language that they MIGHT understand but can only put forth the literal meanings and they demand that it should be understood and accepted as such.
@shimatoree,
There is NO disagreement between us about recitation without understanding the message. On top of that many Muslims think they earn good deeds by recitation without understanding. There is no point in that. We HAVE to UNDERSTAND the MESSAGE. That’s what it is about, but that should NOT deter us from keeping the Qur’an in it’s original form. Once again – not for the sake of Arabs or Arabic, but for the sake of keeping the source of knowledge in it’s original form. What is the solution to the mullah monopoly? Let everyone have the possibility to learn Arabic just like everyone should have access to English as well. We should do hard work to QUALTY education instead!
I am with you regarding breaking the monopoly of the mullahs!
1st of all the translation work of arabic literature has been done extensively so much so that if one dun know arabic that is no hindrance to read and understand all the earlier work of Islam. That work Includes, from translation of Quran to earlier books by tabaeen and taba tabaeen in almost every language of the world.
The greatest decision taken by Scholors of Islam was to keep arabic as the language that binds all the muslims. Specially the preservation of Quran in Arabic language assured that no addition or ommission could be possible. Though we have lot of explanation of qurans by eminent scholors the preservation of original text assures that the authencity of language has been preserved. This lamentation about Arabic being a foreign language is a myth. After all Urdu originated in mid of 16th century and didn’t really get going till late 17th early 18th century. Still the official language of Mughal court was persian. The language urdu is a hybrid and is heavily influenced by Arabic and persian. So how can we say Arabic is a foriegn language. Even if we disregard everything, we must remember that God choose Arabic to reveal Quran and Prophet PBUH spoke arabic. Thus I beg to differ that Arabic is a foreign language. The 1st sound a newborn hear is adhan which is in Arabic, how can then it be a foreign lingo. The problem is not Arabic being a foreign language problem is that we choose not to learn arabic and thus ceded the ground to mullah.
Thus culprit r us not any person or language.
@afzaalkhan,
The new born-( Muslim only)- hears the Azan in Arabic- why because he or she is helpless and dependent on those adults around him or her. My point is all of us(non Arabs) are like that infant- we hear what we cannot understand and we continue NOT to understand.
The fact that of Urdu has Arabic words-(15-18 %) but 65 % Persian . To deny the problem created by Arabic as being a Myth is to stick to a created myth itself.
We should learn Arabic. OK we learn Arabic but are we going to speak Arabic in our everyday conversations in our Pukhtoon villages .
No we will not because we speak Pushto and our parents and grandparents speak Pushto and our relatives speak Pushto.
So we are back to square one again. No one is going to speak it all thee times and it will be again upto the Mullah to tell us what it means.
@shimatoree
Perhaps you are not aware of richness of Arabic language.
The Hikmat of revealing Quran in Arab and in Arabic language is not without logic.
Why Quran was revealed in Arab is not our discussion..I will elaborate why Quran was revealed in Arabic.
Heres one verse and all the top class three translators have used the words “Best of Creators” for “Ahsan-ul Khaliqeen”
[Shakir 37:125] What! do you call upon Ba’l and forsake the best of the creators,
[Yusufali 37:125] “Will ye call upon Baal and forsake the Best of Creators,-
[Pickthal 37:125] Will ye cry unto Baal and forsake the Best of creators,
Do you think “Best of Creators” do the justice i.e. there are more creators other than Allah?
These translators are helpless because no other language can grasp the richness of Arabic.
Quran also talk about “Rizq-e-Hasan” which is best sustenance or it could also means Rightful sustenance because Quran says those who received Rizq-e-Hasan they distribute it.
Ahsan is derived from Hasan which has the similar derivative in Urdu which we call “Husn” or beauty.
“Husn” is not physical attraction…its placement of right parts in right proportion so the key word is “Right”
So the true translation is not “Best of Creators”
It is “Rightful Creator among many creators you perceived including Baal”.
If we take a lead from shimatoree and abandon Arabic then whole foundation of Islam will collapse on account of “Best of Creators”.
@jazoo,
“Perhaps you are not aware of richness of Arabic language.”
Oh I am certainly very much aware of the richness of the Arabic language and let there be no doubt in your mind.
Like everyone else coming from a conservative family I learned Arabic when young- studied the Quran etc etc.
But I am lamenting that since I do not speak Arabic and there is no denying that it IS foreign to me- I have to listen to the specialists who tell me what is what and I have to accept that.
It seems to me that NO one has tried to understand the problem which I have dared to bring up.
@shimatoree Even a self confessed jahil like me finds your argument about the language abit over the top. If people could learn english language as good as the English then why could people not learn Arabic. Preservation of the message in it’s original form is a vital issue. Let us do a simple exercise! Translate what I have said into Urdu and get someone else to translate the same piece from Urdu to English and publish it here!
@taukeer, I decided to reply to you first beacuse of the image of Che ! .
My problem is that URDU is also a foreign language for me.
But let us suppose I could translate and your point is made that a lot is lost in translation.
But that is exactly the point. I cannot understand the message well in URDU. I need for it to be in Pushto .
So what you-( and everyone) appears to be saying is that reciting the Arabic which I do not understand is understanding the message.-( like a parrot)
Or ask an expert in Arabic-( Maulana) .
@shimatoree, Thanks again! I see it pays to be q revolutionary!!! But you will have to teach me Pushto. Inshallah, after I finish learning Arabic.
Islam has a universal message and the Quran’s language is Arabic. If you translate the message and the translation becomes the preferred source of the message then any errors introduced by the original translator become permanent. (Example of Bible for everyone is there)
That is not to say that you can’t translate to improve your understanding but you keep the original source in Arabic so that those who understand the language could refer to the original text.
Reciting of prayers as a ritual is a different thing and Allah knows the reason behind that. And in any case I am the wrong person to be even talking about this issue. I have a fairly strong claim to ignorance!!
@nota,
Well if u r parroting meri jaan to qasoor (beside noor jehan (AALLAH bakhshey) Tumhara hoa na
@taukeer
I will give you just one example how rich Arabic is.
In English “You” stands for all the YOUs
In Arabic
Theres a different word for singular “You:
Thers a different word for Plural “You”
Theres a different word for singular feminine “You”
Theres a different word for plural feminine “You”
Theres a different word for singular masculine “You”
Theres a different word for plural masculine “you”
Theres a different word for 2 feminine “you”
Theres a different word for 2 masculine “You”
I challenge no language can match the richness of Arabic.
@nota and @shimatoree
First of all Arabic can not be Greek for Urdu or Punjabi speakers.
There are many words in Urdu taken from Arabic and alphabets are also similar.
My first exposure to Quran was through tutors, which our friends call parroting, my father fire most of them after few days because their pronunciation was faulty.
So I hardly finish 11 Paras in parroting style.
My first real exposure to Quran was in English with meanings and understanding and I was impressed with the eloquence and depth of this Book.
While reading Quran in English I realized its not possible to explore the depth of Quran without knowing original text in Arabic on verse to verse basis as the need arise.
So understanding Quran on my own with the help of Alim-e-Deen, not through Alim-e-Deen, is the best choice for me.
I am really baffled. We have had example of Bible which when lost the original language become lost in translation. Just for that simple reason it made sense to keep Quran in Arabic. As to keep the original text intact and thus preserve it while allowing for all interpretation to come through. Ofcoz everyone would like to read it in their own language. English was a foreign language and became a norm in our lives because it was pushed through, we made it a point to learn and conduct our bussiness in English. When we were under the British Raj, where English and sanskirat was promoted and urdu and persian were shunned what choice did we have but to keep the thread to muslim ummah going through by keeping Arabic as the medium thats binds us with Muslim Ummah?
After reading all the comments we back to the central question which I asked by the article. We reject secularism but then how much we willing to accept Islam as a “deen” not just a private religious affair between God and Men. I can go on and on abt why Arabic is important but thats not the issue. The issue is on one hand we say we r muslims and we reject secularism, but then we want our own way with Islam. This is another form of secularism. When Quran says Lakum Akamlat-o-deenukum, we have completed the deen for you, then we must decide what we want to do.
As nota mentioned One dun need tafseer to understand Quran on most parts a simple translation will get u most of the understanding. So problem then lies with us why we ceding the ground to Mullah?
ALLAH commands us to read QURAN slowly and understand it, then whose fault it is if we not doing it.
@nota,
and thats exactly my point, noone stopping us to learn. After u learn u can choose watever u want. My problem with Mullah has been, that the earlier Aalims did to benefit the society their followers coined the mullahism and created a theocracy. Anyone who voice opposition must be silenced by fatwa. But again its upto us i.e each one of us to learn watever we want to learn. Quran is very very simple to understand as far as day to day bussiness goes. Ofcoz for higher theological or judicial matter one need a learned man. Just like an ordinary man can’t rule of constitutional qts unless he has been trained to do so in that field.
nota-
My purpose in stirring this ” hornet’s nest ” discusion was simply to start debate on a fundamental issue with which I have been struggling for my 50 plus years and I am very happy to see that the tone and substance of the discussion has been to the point and very civilized and educational.
I am not a scholar of anything-.
But my limited readings of Quran-( on my own) have taught me the following as the essence-
1.Intellectual Honesty in everything as the primary requirement.
2. Insignificance of rituals.
3. Kindness, compassion and humanity.
But getting back to the question of Arabic- upon reflection I came to the conclusion that 160 million Arabs-( with all their oil etc) and speaking Arabic and understanding it are more corrupt, more cruel, more in-humane than us- well maybe we are better off not understanding Arabic after all !
@shimatoree,
“1.Intellectual Honesty in everything as the primary requirement.”
Many religious figures are lacking on this account. This is the premier reason why an Islamic system has not attracted the masses. The maulvis are just out of the contention even with all the falsehood among the politicians.
“2. Insignificance of rituals.”
Tell them about a ritual that did not exist in the Prophet’s (pbh) time. They will say it is not prohibited either, but nevertheless it has become a ritual.
“3. Kindness, compassion and humanity.”
Need I say anything. Maybe the mullahs are the harshest of all. Ask those poor boys who read in madrassahs.
Now am not a big fan of molvis but comeon while we are talking abt intellectual honesty how many of us will want our kids to become molvi. Mostly the molvis we have aree coming from poor masses who can’t afford to get thier kids education like rest of us and they end up being molvi. How many of us really takes out time to become active in muhallah masjid? we blame molvis for all the ills of Islam yet what have we done to the betterment of Islam. We all claims oh we know Islam and its not the one preached by molvi but are we ready to stand up and counter his argument backed by Quran and Hadith. How many of us are even elgible to lead the salat? which is just basic requirement of a muslim.
@AfzaalKhan “who wants their kids to become Molvi” I think that is the point we are trying to make. There should be some basic education of the deen given to the kids so that they don’t require a molvi to guide them. Yes there will be area people will need guidance on like every doctor cant be say a skin specialist but has to have a basic qualification to be a doctor. Similarly there is need for every Muslim to have basic knowledge of the religion though they might not be aware of finer points of jurisprudence.
I know poor Molvi are getting a stick and they are a not here to defend themselves but I think Molvi is one of the most abused word in our language. They performed a very useful role in preservation of the deen through ritual in periods of oppression. I am sure all of you will remember the USSR in Central Asian Republic and Shah of Iran and I can go on and on.
@Afzaal
I agree that no man with capacity wants his kids to become religious scholars. There is a reason for that too…..the system itself. There is NO proper institution. Whose fault is this? Both the government and the religious scholars. They don’t want change. Take the easy way. Do as you always have done. Anyways this doesn’t give excuses for anybody to act like CORRUPT minds! Not for Diesel or anybody else!
@Observer,
how can it be religious scholors fault? They did their job mate. The built madrassas, some of them are really good. Quaid-e-azam was educated at sindh madrastul islam. Look wat we have done to that august institution. The myth of madrassas not teaching modern day courses is just a myth. Check out banoori town and check out some of the madrasas, u wil be surprised how well educated these students are, proficient in comp science etc etc. The real problem lies when we divide the education in religious and so called dunyavi taleem. Education per se no matter wat field is education, nothing dunyavi or deeni in that regard. If the goal of education is to make a living then u can eliminate all hardcore madrassas and wil have wat west going through i.e parhey likhey jahil. A person who graduates with honor from Islamabad university (hardly a madrassa) in Islamic studies can’t find a job except hoping to become a teacher.
So main problem is wat taukeer has identified we have to integrate Islamiyaat as a must with all ecuation and refine it. e.g basic islamic education till 12th grade progressing per class and also in university level. So eg a person becoming a doctor should be given ethic classes from Islami point of view and wont hurt to learn sociology and anthropolgy as per islamic education. A 12th grade student must know basic fiqh a combination of this education will prevent extremism from taking roots.
“how can it be religious scholors fault?”
It is not only their, but they are are guilty part too alongside the corrupt leadership. They collect a lot of money for different purposes and in bwétween the purpose is to build a madrassa. You cannot deny the fact that most madrassas have insuffiecient education in a modern world. Generally speaking the religious people have done very little to develop the nation. In madrassas the main purpose is to learn religious texts. Some time by heart without understanding a word:-(
Maybe you have pressed yourself to the limit to name a few institutions where one can get a modest education. How many of them deliver world class education?
You can never stop the brightest of minds like the Quaid etc. to prosper. Such people will – in most cases – find a way to get a proper education, but what about the masses? What about those who complete such education and come nowhere in the practical life. I think there are far more cases of such people than those who are successful.
In my view it is a myth that religious schools make future generations. To do that they need science as in integral part of the education. Generally speaking that is not the case!
“So main problem is wat taukeer has identified we have to integrate Islamiyaat as a must with all ecuation and refine it. e.g basic islamic education till 12th grade progressing per class and also in university level. So eg a person becoming a doctor should be given ethic classes from Islami point of view and wont hurt to learn sociology and anthropolgy as per islamic education. A 12th grade student must know basic fiqh a combination of this education will prevent extremism from taking roots.”
No disagreement here.
The reqirement must be to introduce quality education otherwise it will end up like the other education – mostly with very low result
- be it religious schools or the ordinary ones. The sad case is that quality education can only be afforded by the elite.
I would like to share the following 2 events and would like to have feed back on this-
Sometimes ago the local mosque people( management) came to me and asked for a donation. I refused. They wanted to know why ?
I said that instead of making buildings- they ought to be helping the people and if they did that then I shall donate whatever I could. They got mad and left . Needless to say I have been labeled a heretic.
To-day I have just returned from a court hearing having to do with a child custody case where a Physician who is in training had beaten his wife and thrown her out of the house here in one of the western countries. This guy wanted complete custody of the child. I drove 400 miles one day to be present at this custody hearing and returned the next day back to work. Why did I go ?
I went because the local mosque and the 5 times praying muslims refused to help the girl and instead became the supporter of the abuser. They tried to intimidate the girl into agreeing with everything that the girl was complaining about.
The husband while he was going to the court for the hearing- his religious friends were serving a Talaq Namna to the girl’s parent’s house in Pindi and were telling everyone in Pindi and Islamabad that the girl had run away with a Hindu !
When the girl was thrown out of the house at 11 PM at night- she had 2 choices- one she could go to the welfare shelter or she could go the home of her Hindu lady friend whi wished to help her in this hour of need.
When in the court room the girl had to testify- she was shattered and had great difficulty and I am over 55 years and I could not help but cry.
The husband tried to hide behind Islam and Islamic culture with the support of all the Tablighi types.
Even though it was not my place but I could not just sit quietly- so I stood up and deflated the balloon of these champions of Islam. And I must say I felt good about it.
What is Islam ?
Is that Islam what the husband and these people did or
Is Islam what the Hindu lady did ?
Hadhrat Ali(as) says recognize momin from his deeds specially trade(lain–dain) not from his saum o salat or rituals.
A person who fear Allah in trade and his promises, fear Allah in all respects.
Thats why when he wrote a letter to new appointed Governor of Egypt, Ibne Ashtar…He told him to closely watch businessmen and keep them away from state affairs because greed of profit easily corrupt people.
Many of us has a misconception that Islam is all about prying 5 times aday and fasting 30 days of Ramadhan and paying Zakat and performing Huj.
Islam could not be defined in shorter words than “Proximity to Allah”
All these rituals are tools to achieve this goal,they themselves are not goal unfortunately most of us Muslim treat the rituals as ultimate goal….After performing these rituals we are satisfied that now we are good mulim.
A muslim like shimatoree is the right kind we need and I can assure you theres an abundance of such kind exists among us who are more into spirit of Islam than the mere rituals.
@Shimatoree & Jazoo
Wonderful. Good comments
Most mullahs I have witnessed in western countries rarely get out of the self inflicted isolation to the mosque walls. If they get out it is mostly because of invitation for some eating or performing religious duties like nikah etc. I have not seen any of them performing daily life duties as f.ex. going to the food store etc. For that kind of duties they have their helpers. That is one reason why they don’t have a proper knowledge about the society around them. How can they guide people properly when they don’t know the good and bad deeds in that society? Why don’t they get out of the nut shell? Why do they isolate themselves?
Aren’t sohaba our role models? Did they not have knowledge about the society around them? Did they have a real job apart from leading the prayers?
Observer-
I would like to say that the issue of following role models- no matter how saintly nor how pious is PASSE.
I feel very strongly that if and I say IF we are to make ANY progress- education by caring and thoughtful folks of one’s own is the solution.
We have intelletual midgets masquerading as teachers-
(Mullahs), leaders, politicians and so on.
Nothing is taught of ethics. People from day one are told if they do this or that they will get more SAWAB- as though you are trading ritualistic behaviour well disguised as good deeds so that you can get something in return.
Children ought to be taught( I do it to my kids) to do the right thing because it is the right thing to do and not because you are going to get to heaven or get some SAWAB.
People are willing to donate large sums of money to build one more mosque while millions are sleeping hungry.
What do you suppose the Saudis would have said if Zia Ul Haq had told them that the money used to build the Faisal Mosque should be spend on educating 100 kids of the dirt poor !
I think everyone knows the answer. And the answer remains the same even if Zia had named( by force of course) all 100 students Faisal !
Nota
I share your thoughts and praise your courage. Guts and character is uncommon in most human beings.
As Comte de Mirabeau said during the French Revolution-
” Most men lack character ”
I would like to suggest that we try-( in our lives) to educate our daughters just like our sons and make them grow up knowing that they too are as much of a human being as a male and no less. And that they are not NAQIS UL AQAL !
If we do that- then we would have an intellectually honest society where the women are not exploited and berated as they are today.
The episodes are many and what I have failed to understand is the subservience that otherwise educated and intelligent women display when dealing with their abusive husbands.
But then I only try to understand.
as long as they are not wives
lolz
but then again I hear same complaints abt hubbies from wives lol
Problem with our leaders in all walks of life is wat Alexandre Auguste Ledru-Rollin said “There goes the mob. I am their leader. I must follow them.”
What makes a person do the right thing ?
Is it the motive of profit-( SWAB) or is it something else ?
Is there some Superior power which puts the idea of the right thing and pushes us to follow that track ?
Or is it a sense we have due to our genetics and upbringing and education that we must do the right thing no matter what.
If it is SWAB- then as soon as Sawab is competing against a worldly profit like material gains or money – guess what in most cases SWAB loses as the old saying one bird in hand is better than two in the bush !
If it is the Superior being then we have no accountability or Sawab etc.
But if it is US doing the right thing because it is the right thing to do- then we have hope for establishing a permanent mechanism to promote good behaviour and humane existence.
So to-day we face a great challenge- how do we liberate ourselves from this dogma of Sawab generated behaviour amongst the masses. Is this a new problem ? I do not think so – we have had this problem for 1400 years after the death of the Prophet(PBUH).
The task is gargantuan but one step at a time it can be done. If we teach and inculcate ethics in our children- we have started a tseunami- granted a slow one but we have started it nonetheless.
Why did someone drive 500 miles one way to be at the court hearing and support for this abused girl- because there was something in that someone which forced them that in order to live with themself at peace they had to do that.The entire Muslim community of doctors, engineers and IT professionals did not. The Mosque did not
She had no one.
She had been given refuge by an Indian Hindu lady who was threatened- then she was given shelter by a local white couple in their house.
She had no money- no food and no clothes except for what she was wearing when her ” MUSLIM” doctor husband kicked her out.
It is these non muslims who came to her rescue, to comfort and support.
Yet the very same Muslim doctors and Muslim engineers and Muslim IT professionals pray 5 times at the mosque to God Almighty who is GHAFOOR UR RAHEEM.
And God did not put the desire to do the right thing into their hearts when they were praying as their subsequent actions prove.
So the conclusion is the same as Buleh Shah came to. To do the right thing- the urge must and can only come from within YOU yourself and not from some extra terrestrial power.
@shimatoree
Goodness is in nature of human being while badness is always circumstantial….One who get a chance to get bribe so he is prompted…Now theres a war between goodness(nature) and circumstantial opportunity.
Satan mentioned in Quran is not a myth…its stark reality which cultivate bad side of your nature…which usually overcome the goodside.
Some basic rules are taught to stay away from satanic web..few of them are eat halal…stay clean…feed your children halal and teach them to stay clean.
Western societies are build on mutual respect.
A will not steal Bs cow because he knows C the other neighbor who is more powerful than A, will steal his cow then.
This understanding of mutual respect is flimsy and not lasting…the moment fear of powerful is gone A will show his real face.
In NY historical power failure for few hours resulted in mass looting and mass rapes.
It also needs the guts of Satan to order nuking of Heroshima and Nagasaki….Fear was not life threatening…fear was loosing war and material disadvantage.
Islamic society suppose to build on fear of Allah…As Allah is not seen so is his fear and so is Islamic society.
Creation of human being is not without causes and one of the big cause is to test human being….You think your testing should be easy in easy environments where everywhere there should be peace and love and Islamic justice.
On the contrary you should be tested in hostile environment..You will be tested with doubts.
Quran says momin does not change with circumstances.
I am surprised within no time you and nota start showing great doubts on your Islamic teachings as you were waiting to see Taliban success as real testament of your faith…The moment they fail you start seeing something wrong with Islamic teachings.
I totally disagree with your concept of Sawabless good deeds.
You think your good deeds are more for your pleasure than Allah.
With mundane approach you can not understand Islam.
Quran clearly says This world is transitory stage..This is unanimously Mohkam Verse…So there should be no other meanings than what the verse says.
Either you believe it or disregard it…its your choice but keep in mind when you are talking about Islamic teachings keep this verse in views or you will be misguided to even understand the concept of Sawab.
Jazoo
You are entitled to disagree with what I say what anyone says.
I think your interpretation that in no time me and nota are showing great doubts about the teachings of Islam is inaccurate.
To connect this imagined great doubts to the success or failiur of the Taliban movement in Pakistan is to say the least LUDICROUS.
I am asking questions about a real life situation. I am trying to understand the validity and applicability of the rules as announced by the authorities in a situation as it exists and affects to-day.
You seem to be in a hurry to first pass judgement on me as a ” good” Muslim and then when I ask questions-( or raise doubts- your words ) now you are surprized.
I thought that since you were Shia- and believed in IJTIHAAD- you of all people would be less likely to indict a person like me who is bent upon asking very difficult questions because I question and think -the canned answers provided by those that are experts- are less than adequate.
The issue of doing good for a reward( swab) as compared with doing good for it’s own sake is very old and there does not appear to be comprehensive or clear cut answer to it.
My good deeds if there are any are for the reason that it is the right thing to do and yes it appears to be too abstract but that is what I am trying to say.
Since I am not a Islamic scholar but my fading memory does remind me that someone who was a religious scholar has said the same thing long time ago.
@shimatoree
I take your words on how you feel and what you feel…I probably was wrong in passing my judgment which you call ludicrous…accept my apologies.
What I wrote it has nothing to do with me being shia.
And you did not ask very difficult question.
When I call you good muslim that was because of spirit of Islam i.e. proximity to Allah by helping other but when I criticize you because you change the whole scenario that what you did not for Sawab or pleasure of Allah but for your own pleasure and surprisingly you call your confusion as hard asked question.
No one is scholar here but then you are the one who is strongly against leaving things with mullas and scholars and I agree with you…we are good enough to talk on difficult issues.
@jazoo
I did what I did not because for my own pleasure- for one thing when you 66 yrs old – driving 500 miles one is not any kind of pleasure.
I did it because God Almighty and his command is paramount with me- simply because as Ghalib said-
Darde dil ke waste paida kia insane ko
verna atta ut ke liye kum na the kerubian.
I feel very good that God almighty placed me in such a situation where I had the opportunity to do something that might be of help to someone and if that meant travelling 1000 miles in 36 hours- that is OK.
@shimatoree
I still am confused I confess I dun understand what you are asking. U and nota gave examples of so called religious ppl doing bad deed to which I can only quote Maulana Maududi, who when asked ke ” dardhee waley chooriyaan karney lagey hain” and he replied, yoon na kahoo yeh kahoo ke choroon nay dardhee rakh li hai.
There was a pedophile issue within catholic church, does this means catholicisim = pedophilia, no its just some followers of catholicisim has gone astrayed and has committed sin.
The motivation or urge or need to do good is inherent. That is ur born with it (albeit some genetic default and some sociopath, as always there are exceptions) But the fact remains its human nature to do good. We express it in different ways. It is contrary to believe that all humans are born sinners, and thats the beauty of Islam that crush that myth and showed us that all humans are born innnocent and u end up sinner or not depending on ur deed. The inherent, instinctive nature of humans to do good is expressed across the board, irregardless of color, creed, race or religion.
Now that we have established that to do good deeds is inbred in human nature we come to the queestion why should we do it. 1st cuz its in our nature going against the nature always brings bad results. I can go on about persoonal satisfaction and wat it does to society. But lets get back to Islamic point of view. Why we doingg it to get the sawab or doing the good deed for the sake of good deed.
ALLAH says in Quran we have created Insaan and jinnnah only to do our Ibadah, and here ibadah is not to pray but everything we do in life for the sake of ALLAH is ibadah. Note sawab is not mentioned, cuz its not guaranted, the only thing guarnted is that you do deed with the point of obeying and pleasuring ALLAH SWT, and he since he is just and merciful will reward you. But the deed has to be done to obey and please ALLAH, not to do wat good it will bring to the person who do the deed.
AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST.